Seniority as a Liability

Posted on | August 29, 2010 | 29 Comments

“The harsh reality is that in the tech world, companies prefer to hire young, inexperienced, engineers. And engineering is an ‘up or out’ profession: you either move up the ladder or face unemployment.”

This is true in many other professions, notoriously including sales. Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman was, after all, a story about a salesman who had grown too old for what is really a young man’s game. If you don’t become an executive — e.g., vice-president of sales — it’s not likely you’re going to reach retirement age doing the same job you were doing when you were 25.

From the standpoint of economics, seniority has no intrinsic value. Indeed, there are many professions in which mere experience is less valuable than the superior energy and adaptability of youth. It was therefore a foolish thing for labor unions, at their height of their power in the mid-20th century, to insist on the “last-hired, first-fired” principle of seniority which protected older workers, per se, at the expense of efficiency.

It’s a dog-eat-dog world, and if you think you can get ahead without improving your skills — constantly hustling to stay ahead of younger competitors in the work force — you’re at risk of becoming obsolete.

Excuse me if there’s no time to extend this into a full-blown essay. I’m still working as hard as I’ve ever worked in my life. Lots of the people I once worked with in the news business are now in some other line of work.

Me? I’ve got a deadline for tomorrow’s American Spectator.

Category: Economics, Journalism

Comments

29 Responses to “Seniority as a Liability”

smitty
August 29th, 2010 @ 11:27 pm

if you think you can get ahead without improving your skills — constantly hustling to stay ahead of younger competitors in the work force
Does this mean you’re installing TweetDeck?
smitty
August 29th, 2010 @ 7:27 pm

if you think you can get ahead without improving your skills — constantly hustling to stay ahead of younger competitors in the work force
Does this mean you’re installing TweetDeck?
Thomas L. Knapp
August 29th, 2010 @ 11:48 pm

“From the standpoint of economics, seniority has no intrinsic value. Indeed, there are many professions in which mere experience is less valuable than the superior energy and adaptability of youth. It was therefore a foolish thing for labor unions, at their height of their power in the mid-20th century, to insist on the “last-hired, first-fired” principle of seniority which protected older workers, per se, at the expense of efficiency.”

This assumes that “efficiency” is or should be a priority of unions, and/or that seniority of personnel negatively affects it in a particular work environment.

“Senior” union members are more likely than “junior” union members to serve on union committees, including bargaining committees. It’s only natural that they’d tend to give their own interests priority in contract negotiations.

“Senior” workers are also money in the bank for both union and employer in one particular respect: Maybe the guy who’s been there six months is planning to retire there, maybe he’s just waiting for an opening elsewhere. The guy who’s been there 16 years, on the other hand, is a proven quantity. He isn’t going to quit, and his union dues won’t stop coming in.

The management of the last factory I worked at had assumed there would be a union, and asked the workers to discuss which union they wanted to affiliate with when they opened the plant (and this was in very NON-union southern Missouri).

Their reasoning, as best I can tell, was simple — most of the jobs there didn’t require a great deal of the “energy of youth,” but a good number of them took some time to train people for, and high turnover would make operations more expensive for that reason.

For example, millers (that’s what I did for most of my time there) took 3-6 months to train to a minimum of competence. Until trained, they probably cost the company more than they were making for the company, because they were mostly following another miller around and learning. The company didn’t want to train a miller for six months and have him leave, never to return, six months later.
Thomas L. Knapp
August 29th, 2010 @ 7:48 pm

“From the standpoint of economics, seniority has no intrinsic value. Indeed, there are many professions in which mere experience is less valuable than the superior energy and adaptability of youth. It was therefore a foolish thing for labor unions, at their height of their power in the mid-20th century, to insist on the “last-hired, first-fired” principle of seniority which protected older workers, per se, at the expense of efficiency.”

This assumes that “efficiency” is or should be a priority of unions, and/or that seniority of personnel negatively affects it in a particular work environment.

“Senior” union members are more likely than “junior” union members to serve on union committees, including bargaining committees. It’s only natural that they’d tend to give their own interests priority in contract negotiations.

“Senior” workers are also money in the bank for both union and employer in one particular respect: Maybe the guy who’s been there six months is planning to retire there, maybe he’s just waiting for an opening elsewhere. The guy who’s been there 16 years, on the other hand, is a proven quantity. He isn’t going to quit, and his union dues won’t stop coming in.

The management of the last factory I worked at had assumed there would be a union, and asked the workers to discuss which union they wanted to affiliate with when they opened the plant (and this was in very NON-union southern Missouri).

Their reasoning, as best I can tell, was simple — most of the jobs there didn’t require a great deal of the “energy of youth,” but a good number of them took some time to train people for, and high turnover would make operations more expensive for that reason.

For example, millers (that’s what I did for most of my time there) took 3-6 months to train to a minimum of competence. Until trained, they probably cost the company more than they were making for the company, because they were mostly following another miller around and learning. The company didn’t want to train a miller for six months and have him leave, never to return, six months later.
Paul A'Barge
August 29th, 2010 @ 11:56 pm

if you think you can get ahead without improving your skills — constantly hustling to stay ahead of younger competitors in the work force

Let me guess … you’re not in IT. And it shows.

Take a minute and read the comments to the discussion to which you linked. The reality in IT is not as simplistic as you’ve made it out to be. There is some very nasty stuff going on and has been going on since the initial Tech Bubble Burst following 9/11 in 2001.

You should educate yourself a bit about the reality and the history before you dash off a “screw the lazy old buggers” screed and then dash off to something else.

Frankly, it’s not a very attractive reflection of who you are as a person.
Paul A'Barge
August 29th, 2010 @ 7:56 pm

if you think you can get ahead without improving your skills — constantly hustling to stay ahead of younger competitors in the work force

Let me guess … you’re not in IT. And it shows.

Take a minute and read the comments to the discussion to which you linked. The reality in IT is not as simplistic as you’ve made it out to be. There is some very nasty stuff going on and has been going on since the initial Tech Bubble Burst following 9/11 in 2001.

You should educate yourself a bit about the reality and the history before you dash off a “screw the lazy old buggers” screed and then dash off to something else.

Frankly, it’s not a very attractive reflection of who you are as a person.
smitty
August 30th, 2010 @ 12:12 am

@Paul A’Barge,
I work in IT, and this is a capitalistic society.
What I want to see from these senior dudes is a realization that they have to Make Their Own Opportunities.
If they gather, form a company, and undercut their old outfits in the market, then everyone but the Bad Guys benefit.
At the point where the old companies are rigging the market to deny these free agents equality of opportunity, THEN I can muster some sympathy.
But I need to see effort.
smitty
August 29th, 2010 @ 8:12 pm

@Paul A’Barge,
I work in IT, and this is a capitalistic society.
What I want to see from these senior dudes is a realization that they have to Make Their Own Opportunities.
If they gather, form a company, and undercut their old outfits in the market, then everyone but the Bad Guys benefit.
At the point where the old companies are rigging the market to deny these free agents equality of opportunity, THEN I can muster some sympathy.
But I need to see effort.
JeffS
August 30th, 2010 @ 12:17 am

You should educate yourself a bit about the reality and the history before you dash off a “screw the lazy old buggers” screed and then dash off to something else.

Perhaps IT is an exception to the rule, Paul, but I have to wonder. I’m an engineer, and what Stacy and the linked article is common.

Not universal, though. The exceptions are those people who LEARN the system, especially the HR road blocks. They work around the problem. I’ve seen that strategy work.

But it’s nearly a constant that the more seniority you have, the more you are expected to cost. So the people what do the hiring are indeed looking for junior people, i.e., recent college graduates who will cost less.

It’s a “management” problem, or at least it is framed as such. The older but smart folks avoid that. The older but not so smart folks hit that brick wall dead on…..and don’t understand why.

I read this in the comments of the linked article. Saw it both ways. You have a point, but it is not absolute. Same with the article.

So you might want to ease back on the throttle a bit.
JeffS
August 29th, 2010 @ 8:17 pm

You should educate yourself a bit about the reality and the history before you dash off a “screw the lazy old buggers” screed and then dash off to something else.

Perhaps IT is an exception to the rule, Paul, but I have to wonder. I’m an engineer, and what Stacy and the linked article is common.

Not universal, though. The exceptions are those people who LEARN the system, especially the HR road blocks. They work around the problem. I’ve seen that strategy work.

But it’s nearly a constant that the more seniority you have, the more you are expected to cost. So the people what do the hiring are indeed looking for junior people, i.e., recent college graduates who will cost less.

It’s a “management” problem, or at least it is framed as such. The older but smart folks avoid that. The older but not so smart folks hit that brick wall dead on…..and don’t understand why.

I read this in the comments of the linked article. Saw it both ways. You have a point, but it is not absolute. Same with the article.

So you might want to ease back on the throttle a bit.
Robert Stacy McCain
August 30th, 2010 @ 1:13 am

Does this mean you’re installing TweetDeck?

I take time out from deadline to reply, “Smart aleck.”
Robert Stacy McCain
August 29th, 2010 @ 9:13 pm

Does this mean you’re installing TweetDeck?

I take time out from deadline to reply, “Smart aleck.”
Mary Rose
August 30th, 2010 @ 1:20 am

My husband had a job in the IT field. Some consultant came in and told the company how they could save by offshoring many positions, including my husband’s. Then you have lawyers telling companies how to get around posting a job for U.S. citizens so they can bring in more H1B visa workers.

Within my networking groups, I’ve noticed more older workers saying “enough is enough” and starting their own businesses. It may be self-employment. It may not have anything to do with their previous job. But many are trying.

I have no desire to be wrung out dry by some company who wants to pay me pennies and expect 60-hour weeks. That’s what the twentysomethings are for. If I’m going to work that hard, I’d rather do my own billing.
Mary Rose
August 29th, 2010 @ 9:20 pm

My husband had a job in the IT field. Some consultant came in and told the company how they could save by offshoring many positions, including my husband’s. Then you have lawyers telling companies how to get around posting a job for U.S. citizens so they can bring in more H1B visa workers.

Within my networking groups, I’ve noticed more older workers saying “enough is enough” and starting their own businesses. It may be self-employment. It may not have anything to do with their previous job. But many are trying.

I have no desire to be wrung out dry by some company who wants to pay me pennies and expect 60-hour weeks. That’s what the twentysomethings are for. If I’m going to work that hard, I’d rather do my own billing.
Mary Rose
August 30th, 2010 @ 1:21 am

I like Seesmic for organizing my Twitter stream. BTW, RSM and Smitty, I’m “CathPrdDaughter” on there. Both of you are in my “People I Don’t Want To Miss” column, lol.
Mary Rose
August 29th, 2010 @ 9:21 pm

I like Seesmic for organizing my Twitter stream. BTW, RSM and Smitty, I’m “CathPrdDaughter” on there. Both of you are in my “People I Don’t Want To Miss” column, lol.
smitty
August 30th, 2010 @ 1:35 am

I take time out from deadline to reply, “Smart aleck.”

And would you have hired me, were I a dumb aleck? 😉
smitty
August 29th, 2010 @ 9:35 pm

I take time out from deadline to reply, “Smart aleck.”

And would you have hired me, were I a dumb aleck? 😉
Randy Rager
August 30th, 2010 @ 1:41 am

Doubtful, as then you would most likely have been voting Democrat.

😀
Randy Rager
August 29th, 2010 @ 9:41 pm

Doubtful, as then you would most likely have been voting Democrat.

😀
Around the Blogosphere AKA Rule 5 Sunday | Political Byline
August 29th, 2010 @ 9:54 pm

[…] Seniority as a Liability (Old Geezers… heh, gotta like ‘em.. ) […]
Jim McFadden
August 30th, 2010 @ 2:31 am

Yeah, but Stacy: We’re in another line of work because journalism paid so poorly . . .
Jim McFadden
August 29th, 2010 @ 10:31 pm

Yeah, but Stacy: We’re in another line of work because journalism paid so poorly . . .
Roxeanne de Luca
August 30th, 2010 @ 4:55 am

Agree re: engineering, but not necessarily with sales. Since a fair amount of sales operates on commission or close-to commission (i.e. you are paid on salary and expected to hit certain targets), it does not matter whether someone is twenty or seventy, so long as the stuff is getting sold for a good profit.

In other professions, the big issue is often that older people want to be paid more.

As a final thought: kids “right out of college” are really not valuable to many employers, because they require training – and a fair number of them can’t get out of bed in the morning. A kid with a few years of experience, and a track record to show that he’s capable of acting like an adult, is in a much better position.
Roxeanne de Luca
August 30th, 2010 @ 12:55 am

Agree re: engineering, but not necessarily with sales. Since a fair amount of sales operates on commission or close-to commission (i.e. you are paid on salary and expected to hit certain targets), it does not matter whether someone is twenty or seventy, so long as the stuff is getting sold for a good profit.

In other professions, the big issue is often that older people want to be paid more.

As a final thought: kids “right out of college” are really not valuable to many employers, because they require training – and a fair number of them can’t get out of bed in the morning. A kid with a few years of experience, and a track record to show that he’s capable of acting like an adult, is in a much better position.
Mary Rose
August 30th, 2010 @ 9:58 am

My father would often say that companies hire young people so they can “burn ’em out.” Older workers 1) rightfully want higher wages commensurate with their experience and 2) aren’t as concerned with kissing someone’s keister in order to ‘get ahead.’

For an older worker in the workplace, he now has the added delight of being thrust into “reverse mentoring” sessions with a group of Millennials who will “train” the older executive in the fine art of Twittering. Afterward, those same Millennials will expect to occupy that executive’s office by next month.

I say go Galt and work for yourself. It’s only going to get worse. My sister-in-law (a fortysomething) is already experiencing what life is like when a 28-year old bank manager thinks the workplace should be as cool as Jersey Shore.
Mary Rose
August 30th, 2010 @ 5:58 am

My father would often say that companies hire young people so they can “burn ’em out.” Older workers 1) rightfully want higher wages commensurate with their experience and 2) aren’t as concerned with kissing someone’s keister in order to ‘get ahead.’

For an older worker in the workplace, he now has the added delight of being thrust into “reverse mentoring” sessions with a group of Millennials who will “train” the older executive in the fine art of Twittering. Afterward, those same Millennials will expect to occupy that executive’s office by next month.

I say go Galt and work for yourself. It’s only going to get worse. My sister-in-law (a fortysomething) is already experiencing what life is like when a 28-year old bank manager thinks the workplace should be as cool as Jersey Shore.
Chris
August 30th, 2010 @ 10:56 am

Well, it helps if the gov’t and business aren’t undercutting you by importing workers. The whole H1B thing is killing our IT workforce.
Chris
August 30th, 2010 @ 6:56 am

Well, it helps if the gov’t and business aren’t undercutting you by importing workers. The whole H1B thing is killing our IT workforce.

The Other McCain

"One should either write ruthlessly what one believes to be the truth, or else shut up." — Arthur Koestler

Seniority as a Liability

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