The Other McCain

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Da Tech Guy Visits A Mosque

Posted on | August 7, 2010 | 27 Comments

by Smitty

Long-time friend of this blog Da Tech Guy was in the neighborhood and discovered what quite a few say about Moslems. Individually, they’re the kind of social conservatives that a goodly chunk of the readers of this blog have no trouble getting along with.

For example, at CPAC two years back, I spent a bit of time talking to Muslims for America.

On the other hand, I just finished The Grand Jihad, and I’m halfway through Nomad.  There are several darkly quotable passages in both.

Thoughts:

  • The US emphasis on individual liberty is at odds with Islam and Sharia.
  • Moderate Muslims need to be offering serious leadership on toning down Islam and Sharia.
  • Real improvement is decades away, and may not come as peacefully as is desirable.
Category: Uncategorized

Comments

27 Responses to “Da Tech Guy Visits A Mosque”

  1. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm

    Having lived and traveled in the middle east for years, I can second Da Tech Guy’s general assessment. Most Muslims are very regular folks who want nothing more than their kids to get a good education and do better than they did.

    That said, there is a dangerous minority movement in Islam as it is currently practiced that has a tendency to draw in the disaffected. And I have seen this first hand in Egypt, Jordan, certainly Saudi Arabia, and even in Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia.

    Islamic Extremism has spread deep roots already in the UK and Europe. We do not want that invasive weed to establish itself here.

    Which is why a mosque in the Pentagon is no big deal (my understanding is they give Muslim soliders a place to pray). It is a big building and I believe there are other types of chapels there too.

    But a symbolic mosque at ground zero is a problem. This is not some congregation of Muslims who happen to live in near by Tribeca, but a decision to put the Cordoba Islamic Center at the attack site. Why? Is it really bridge building? Or is it trying to say everyone is at fault for 9/11. If everyone is at fault, no one is to blame.

    I disagree with that. Vehemently.

  2. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 11:59 am

    Having lived and traveled in the middle east for years, I can second Da Tech Guy’s general assessment. Most Muslims are very regular folks who want nothing more than their kids to get a good education and do better than they did.

    That said, there is a dangerous minority movement in Islam as it is currently practiced that has a tendency to draw in the disaffected. And I have seen this first hand in Egypt, Jordan, certainly Saudi Arabia, and even in Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia.

    Islamic Extremism has spread deep roots already in the UK and Europe. We do not want that invasive weed to establish itself here.

    Which is why a mosque in the Pentagon is no big deal (my understanding is they give Muslim soliders a place to pray). It is a big building and I believe there are other types of chapels there too.

    But a symbolic mosque at ground zero is a problem. This is not some congregation of Muslims who happen to live in near by Tribeca, but a decision to put the Cordoba Islamic Center at the attack site. Why? Is it really bridge building? Or is it trying to say everyone is at fault for 9/11. If everyone is at fault, no one is to blame.

    I disagree with that. Vehemently.

  3. Bob Belvedere
    August 7th, 2010 @ 5:16 pm

    Smitty wrote:
    -Moderate Muslims need to be offering serious leadership on toning down Islam and Sharia.
    -Real improvement is decades away, and may not come as peacefully as is desirable.

    All Muslims are commanded to either murder or enslave all non-Muslims [ie: Jihad]. All forms of lying, deception, and violence may be employed against the infidels. Allah wills all of this in The Koran and that book is his final word and therefore cannot be amended. You see the problem.

    The only way a peaceful Muslim soul can achieve the ends you desire is to become an apostate.

  4. Bob Belvedere
    August 7th, 2010 @ 1:16 pm

    Smitty wrote:
    -Moderate Muslims need to be offering serious leadership on toning down Islam and Sharia.
    -Real improvement is decades away, and may not come as peacefully as is desirable.

    All Muslims are commanded to either murder or enslave all non-Muslims [ie: Jihad]. All forms of lying, deception, and violence may be employed against the infidels. Allah wills all of this in The Koran and that book is his final word and therefore cannot be amended. You see the problem.

    The only way a peaceful Muslim soul can achieve the ends you desire is to become an apostate.

  5. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 5:49 pm

    The jihad doctrine is not quite as universal on warfare against the non belivers. Some Muslims say jihad (which litterally means struggle) is an internal one or a struggle to improve Muslim society. But certainly relgious war is a form of jihad. When it is justified is debatable even in Islam. It is fair to say Muslims do want to spread their faith universally.

    So I disagree a peaceful Muslim, not embracing religous war as jihad, is an apostate. But Bob is right that some Muslims (a minority, but a significant one) actually believe that.

  6. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 1:49 pm

    The jihad doctrine is not quite as universal on warfare against the non belivers. Some Muslims say jihad (which litterally means struggle) is an internal one or a struggle to improve Muslim society. But certainly relgious war is a form of jihad. When it is justified is debatable even in Islam. It is fair to say Muslims do want to spread their faith universally.

    So I disagree a peaceful Muslim, not embracing religous war as jihad, is an apostate. But Bob is right that some Muslims (a minority, but a significant one) actually believe that.

  7. Kojocaro
    August 7th, 2010 @ 5:56 pm

    GG your opinions?

    hah like i give a crap what a militant progressive atheist thug like him things

  8. Kojocaro
    August 7th, 2010 @ 1:56 pm

    GG your opinions?

    hah like i give a crap what a militant progressive atheist thug like him things

  9. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 6:04 pm

    Then again, the guys Bob is concerned with are definitely out there:

    Alhamdullilah [Praise to Allah] and we will live, will see the day when Islam, by the grace of Allah, will become the dominant way of life. . . . I’m telling you don’t take it for granted because Allah is increasing this deen [religion] in your lifetime. Alhamdullilah that soon, soon . . . before Allah closes our eyes for the last time, you will see Islam move from being the second largest religion in America — that’s where we are now — to being the first religion in America.

    Moderate Muslims via NRO

  10. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 2:04 pm

    Then again, the guys Bob is concerned with are definitely out there:

    Alhamdullilah [Praise to Allah] and we will live, will see the day when Islam, by the grace of Allah, will become the dominant way of life. . . . I’m telling you don’t take it for granted because Allah is increasing this deen [religion] in your lifetime. Alhamdullilah that soon, soon . . . before Allah closes our eyes for the last time, you will see Islam move from being the second largest religion in America — that’s where we are now — to being the first religion in America.

    Moderate Muslims via NRO

  11. Evan
    August 7th, 2010 @ 6:11 pm

    Oh, so we’re on board with this hand-wringing concern about making Islam function in the American context? Someone has given up. Save “getting along” and accommodation for your daily life.

    By the way, what’s at issue is not the fundamental nature, peaceful or otherwise, of Islam. From this distance I couldn’t give a damn. Portions of my city are now noticeably Arab where before, within my lifetime, they weren’t. These people don’t threaten me or blow things up, so the geopolitical chatter about jihad doesn’t apply, or does only indirectly. I want to know about demographic change and what it means. Say something.

  12. Evan
    August 7th, 2010 @ 2:11 pm

    Oh, so we’re on board with this hand-wringing concern about making Islam function in the American context? Someone has given up. Save “getting along” and accommodation for your daily life.

    By the way, what’s at issue is not the fundamental nature, peaceful or otherwise, of Islam. From this distance I couldn’t give a damn. Portions of my city are now noticeably Arab where before, within my lifetime, they weren’t. These people don’t threaten me or blow things up, so the geopolitical chatter about jihad doesn’t apply, or does only indirectly. I want to know about demographic change and what it means. Say something.

  13. Steve Skubinna
    August 7th, 2010 @ 6:16 pm

    I am always upset when some smug doofus makes the asinine claim that “only” 10-15% of Muslims worldwide actively support violent jihad and terror.

    If “only” 10-15% of American Christians supported holy war against the secular state, we’d have a full fledged civil war.

    What kind of willful stupidity is to pretend that 10-15% of 1.5 billion is an inconsequential number?

  14. Steve Skubinna
    August 7th, 2010 @ 2:16 pm

    I am always upset when some smug doofus makes the asinine claim that “only” 10-15% of Muslims worldwide actively support violent jihad and terror.

    If “only” 10-15% of American Christians supported holy war against the secular state, we’d have a full fledged civil war.

    What kind of willful stupidity is to pretend that 10-15% of 1.5 billion is an inconsequential number?

  15. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 8:12 pm

    Steve, it is a huge number. I think it is less than that, but there are millions of Muslims supporting terrorists.

    You want to draw an analogy? I remember going into Irish-American bars in the 1980s on the east coast where Maggie Thatcher’s picture was on wanted posters and they would pass the hat for the boys fighting in NI.

    Yet these same socially conservative law abiding patriotic guys did not question that the IRA at the time was as radical as the Weather Underground or the Bader-Meinhof gang. They thought they were supporting Michael Collins.

  16. Joe
    August 7th, 2010 @ 4:12 pm

    Steve, it is a huge number. I think it is less than that, but there are millions of Muslims supporting terrorists.

    You want to draw an analogy? I remember going into Irish-American bars in the 1980s on the east coast where Maggie Thatcher’s picture was on wanted posters and they would pass the hat for the boys fighting in NI.

    Yet these same socially conservative law abiding patriotic guys did not question that the IRA at the time was as radical as the Weather Underground or the Bader-Meinhof gang. They thought they were supporting Michael Collins.

  17. Adobe Walls
    August 7th, 2010 @ 9:11 pm

    @ Evan: The demographics you are witnessing is merely a more gradual form of Jihad.
    Know it or not, like it or not Islam is at war with us. In the end either the Cross Of St George or the Crescent Moon must fall.

  18. Adobe Walls
    August 7th, 2010 @ 5:11 pm

    @ Evan: The demographics you are witnessing is merely a more gradual form of Jihad.
    Know it or not, like it or not Islam is at war with us. In the end either the Cross Of St George or the Crescent Moon must fall.

  19. Steven
    August 8th, 2010 @ 12:15 am

    I have been a student of Arabic and the Middle East for more than 20 years. I’ve lived and worked in Jordan, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. I’ve read the Koran in English and in Arabic (two entirely different things.) I can say with complete confidence that what you refer to as “moderate” Muslims are analogous to what we refer to as nominal Christians, which is to say they are lapsed, or not currently or fully practicing their faith.

    People who should know better like to say the Koran is ambiguous about the treatment of non-Muslims. That’s either because they’re lying or they don’t understand the doctrine of abbrogation, which means that whatever Mohammed said later takes precedence over what he said earlier. His instructions to treat “people of the book” with special consideration were given early in his career – before he had an army. Later, when Islam became a force of conquest, he changed his stance and made it clear that Muslims should never befriend non-Muslims, and that killing, enslaving, or extracting protection money from us were the only acceptable ways to deal with us.

    Moderates are simply Muslims who deny (at least when they talk to us) Islamic doctrine. When the chips are down, when they are a majority or when societal pressure demands it of them, I expect that nearly all of them would condone what “extremists” are trying to do. After all, they’re just trying to establish the kingdom of Allah on earth in accordance with Mohammed’s instructions.

    Don’t believe me? Then why aren’t these so-called moderates doing anything to clear the name of Islam? Where is the groundswell of moderation seeking to set the record straight? It’s silly to say for so-called moderates the things we wish they were saying themselves. If they’re not saying those things in public, if they’re not putting skin in the game, it’s for a reason. It’s because they don’t believe in the moderation we so desperately want them to believe in.

    Just to clarify – I don’t hate Muslims. Were they allowed to be so, I would have called several my friends over the course of the last 20 years.

  20. Steven
    August 7th, 2010 @ 8:15 pm

    I have been a student of Arabic and the Middle East for more than 20 years. I’ve lived and worked in Jordan, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. I’ve read the Koran in English and in Arabic (two entirely different things.) I can say with complete confidence that what you refer to as “moderate” Muslims are analogous to what we refer to as nominal Christians, which is to say they are lapsed, or not currently or fully practicing their faith.

    People who should know better like to say the Koran is ambiguous about the treatment of non-Muslims. That’s either because they’re lying or they don’t understand the doctrine of abbrogation, which means that whatever Mohammed said later takes precedence over what he said earlier. His instructions to treat “people of the book” with special consideration were given early in his career – before he had an army. Later, when Islam became a force of conquest, he changed his stance and made it clear that Muslims should never befriend non-Muslims, and that killing, enslaving, or extracting protection money from us were the only acceptable ways to deal with us.

    Moderates are simply Muslims who deny (at least when they talk to us) Islamic doctrine. When the chips are down, when they are a majority or when societal pressure demands it of them, I expect that nearly all of them would condone what “extremists” are trying to do. After all, they’re just trying to establish the kingdom of Allah on earth in accordance with Mohammed’s instructions.

    Don’t believe me? Then why aren’t these so-called moderates doing anything to clear the name of Islam? Where is the groundswell of moderation seeking to set the record straight? It’s silly to say for so-called moderates the things we wish they were saying themselves. If they’re not saying those things in public, if they’re not putting skin in the game, it’s for a reason. It’s because they don’t believe in the moderation we so desperately want them to believe in.

    Just to clarify – I don’t hate Muslims. Were they allowed to be so, I would have called several my friends over the course of the last 20 years.

  21. Dandapani
    August 8th, 2010 @ 1:12 am

    Muslims in minority: demure.
    Muslims at parity: defiant.
    Muslims in majority: deadly.

  22. Dandapani
    August 7th, 2010 @ 9:12 pm

    Muslims in minority: demure.
    Muslims at parity: defiant.
    Muslims in majority: deadly.

  23. CountVikula
    August 8th, 2010 @ 1:16 pm

    Shadow-boxing.

    There’s a billion Muslims on earth. If 700 million of them secretly wanted to kill all non-Muslims, I’d think we’d know it.

    You can take practically any religious book and find hateful references. That doesn’t mean the average Muslim is going to “allah-akbar” you, or a Jew is going to spit on your church, or a Christian is going to nonchalantly explain you’re headed to hell.

    If someday we do have 700 million of them ready for Jihad, I won’t be surprised. Everytime a tragic accident, from my perspective, results in the deaths of innocent civilians on the ground in the middle east as a result a military strike, we galvanize another village/family/group to hate Christians. I do not blame those villagers one iota. If some foreign power accidentally predator-droned one of my neighbors homes, I’d hate those people too.

    Frankly I am startled at the lack of fundamentalism by some groups. Maybe it’s because most people are just trying to make a living like many of us.

  24. CountVikula
    August 8th, 2010 @ 9:16 am

    Shadow-boxing.

    There’s a billion Muslims on earth. If 700 million of them secretly wanted to kill all non-Muslims, I’d think we’d know it.

    You can take practically any religious book and find hateful references. That doesn’t mean the average Muslim is going to “allah-akbar” you, or a Jew is going to spit on your church, or a Christian is going to nonchalantly explain you’re headed to hell.

    If someday we do have 700 million of them ready for Jihad, I won’t be surprised. Everytime a tragic accident, from my perspective, results in the deaths of innocent civilians on the ground in the middle east as a result a military strike, we galvanize another village/family/group to hate Christians. I do not blame those villagers one iota. If some foreign power accidentally predator-droned one of my neighbors homes, I’d hate those people too.

    Frankly I am startled at the lack of fundamentalism by some groups. Maybe it’s because most people are just trying to make a living like many of us.

  25. Bob Belvedere
    August 8th, 2010 @ 9:15 pm

    Thanks to Steven Givler for fleshing out my point with much more eloquence than I mustered.

  26. Bob Belvedere
    August 8th, 2010 @ 5:15 pm

    Thanks to Steven Givler for fleshing out my point with much more eloquence than I mustered.

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